Most of my friends are not my age
a conversation about intergenerational friendship with my friend, Donna Lancaster
I’ve always gravitated towards people older than me. I’m nearly 36, and recently I’ve noticed that most of the people I spend time with—or send voice notes to—are either older or younger than me, but rarely my own age. Apart from a handful of friends from school and university, I’m surrounded by intergenerational friendships—a theme that also appears in my most recent novel.
Last Summer I met up with a friend in NYC who is 60.
I went to stay with a friend last year who is 62.
I’m in a writers’ WhatsApp group where the average age is around 43.
For years, I had a penpal who was in her 80s.
I have siblings in their 50s and I don’t feel that there is a huge gap between us when we talk about life, love, clothes and work.
I love being around older people, it reminds me of that phrase “if you’re the smartest person in the room, you’re in the wrong room.” I want to always be learning from people who have been around longer than me.
I also love my younger friendships. I went for a long walk with a 25-year-old friend recently and I left fizzing with ideas and fresh energy.
In my new novel, Table For One, there are two intergenerational relationships in the storyline: one between the main character, Willow, and a young Gen Z woman named Naz; and another with her 50-something aunt, Carla. I never realise what I’m writing about until I’ve written it, but clearly, a part of me wanted to celebrate the intergenerational friendships in my own life through these characters.
The topic of intergenerational friendship made me think of my friendship with the incredible
who is in her 50s. So, here is an open-hearted conversation with my friend Donna below. Hope you enjoy! xo
EMMA: Donna, I’m so excited to be doing this! Let’s start with a basic question: Do you have friends who are older and younger than you?
DONNA: I can’t wait to read your new book Emma. I too love and celebrate intergenerational friendships. My older friends often teach/remind me about learning to be more present, grabbing each moment and have inspired me to be braver in that way too. They also model to me how to honour and accept the different stages of the ageing process, which isn’t always easy.
My younger friends’ life force is powerful and contagious! It can be easy as you age to start believing that outdated narrative about what you can’t do/wear/be—because of your age—and my gorgeous younger friends help me write a new story around that every day! I also love the opportunity to mentor and guide them (but only if they invite it).
EMMA: I think an age gap in a friendship can create a safe space. You’re not at the same stages in life. I think it creates a strong bond, because you both offer different perspectives. What are your thoughts on this?
DONNA: Absolutely. I love to be challenged and inspired by those at different stages in their life. Also as you say, it can mean the bond becomes stronger, because you’re not both two overwhelmed young mums at the same stage of life, for example, trying to squeeze in time for each other and the relationship.
EMMA: Do you remember when we first met? We went for a coffee before I interviewed you for my podcast (Ctrl Alt Delete) before I ended the show in January 2023. In fact, it was a conversation we’d had that inspired me to close it down. You gave such incredible wisdom on boundaries and knowing yourself. It made me realise I didn’t want to interview people anymore, I wanted to just focus on my writing and novels. I noticed that the older women around me had started to do what they wanted to do: they were over the initial hump of motherhood, were finally pushing back what society expected of women. Some were divorced, some had changed jobs successfully, and I thought: hey—maybe I can try that sort of mindset on! Maybe I could do more of what I wanted. What do you remember, from that first time we met?
DONNA: I remember it very well. How we both shared that we were nervous to meet each other because it was the period of time when we were all just coming out of lockdowns etc. I immediately thought ‘she’s a bit of me’ as I recognise truth when she walks into a room.
I didn’t know that our conversation inspired you to close the podcast and focus more on what you love. Writing! That you not only heard what I said but acted upon it. Wonderful stuff. I loved our time in that little recording booth, and how we understood each other organically with our needs as introverts. I remember that you were so understanding about my sweaty/heat menopausal requirements. This memory makes me want to re-listen to our conversation. I know it was a juicy one.
EMMA: Yes! You immediately launched into jokes about the menopause: “You can edit out my brain farts, right?” You later wrote an incredible piece for The Hyphen about the Menoportal about the deeper meaning of this transitional period of life. Do you think it’s important for women to share these things with each other? I feel so lucky that my older friends tell me information I will one day need to know.
DONNA: Ah yes, I remember I was very in the fire as it were of menopause at that time. Not easy. I do believe though that it’s important to speak and share openly about these topics with other women but making sure we offer a balanced perspective. It’s a bit like having children, if mothers only spoke about ‘the horrors’ of childbirth, humans would be extinct in no time.
The peri/menopause is such a time of transformation and growth. Beyond all the physical and emotional dimensions to it (which can be very challenging of course), there is also a deeper and spiritual meaning of this phase of life. That’s what I call the meno-portal. Unfortunately, I only heard the horror stories about menopause and I didn’t have other wise Elders to guide me through it, so that’s partly why I’m in training to become one and share the news that menopause = freedom. Hallelujah.
EMMA: I love how we send voice-notes back and forth without any pressure. How has friendship changed/evolved for you as you got older? i.e. I feel like I don’t need to see people physically all the time for us to feel close. Do you have this? Do you have different friends for different things?
DONNA: Me too re: our voice-notes! I love listening to yours with a cuppa in the garden or on my walk and it’s like you’re sitting/walking alongside me.
I love the diverse nature of my friendships. Like you Emma, I feel very close to people without a need to see them in person. I have friends that I see once a year and we just pick up where we left off. No drama. I do also believe there are different types of friendships too. For example, I have a walking friend, where we only ever meet up to walk and chat. And another we go to the cinema together and that’s our thing. I don’t believe every friendship has to be profound and deep. Some friends are my fun buddies who might help me play more and others I’ll have deep conversations with and are what I call my 3am people. If we called each other at 3am, we know the other would be there for us. (Actually my phone would be downstairs but you get the drift!)
EMMA: Do you remember when we bought each other gifts one Christmas and swapped them at a gorgeous cafe that does hot chocolate and it was so lovely. Your gift symbolised something meaningful and I have it on my desk as a reminder. When I make new friends, I like that this new person is seeing me for who I am right now, not the person they met two decades ago. It’s like they’re seeing the software update, not the outdated model. Do you think new friends are important because they see the ‘you’ now? And old friends are equally as important for different reasons?
DONNA: I absolutely loved that time we shared giggles, gifts and hot chocolates. I’m so glad you loved your gift. Sometimes the truth is we also outgrow old friendships. Not better or worse, just different. I think in many ways we find it more acceptable to end a romantic relationship than an old friendship. But I can remember when I started to work on my inner world and heal, some of my old friends just weren’t interested. All they wanted to talk about was the next party or what we were going to wear. In the end I think we both bored each other senseless so it was kinder to end the friendship.
“I think in many ways we find it more acceptable to end a romantic relationship than an old friendship.”
EMMA: I have always felt older than I am. I love what you have to say about how we are ‘all the ages you’ve ever been’ - can you talk a bit about this?
DONNA: It was the Elder Anne Lamott who said ‘I am all the ages I have ever been’ originally and I love that too. To recognise that inside of us we carry precious aspects of our life’s journey, with parts still being 5 months, 5 years and 55 for example. How rich and delicious is that? We only get in trouble if we are 55 and letting the 5 year old run the show! But to embrace and integrate all that we are at the different stages of our human journey… now that’s a true return to wholeness.
EMMA: You often call yourself an ‘Elder in training’, something that we, in the Western world, perhaps don’t give enough thought to. I’ve witnessed people treat anyone over-65, for example, like they are in a separate world, out of touch, politically different etc. We forget that ‘older’ people have been on this planet for a long time and have deep wisdom to share. Can you tell us what Elders mean to you and your relationship with it?
DONNA: Oh this is a hard one to answer briefly, but I’ll try. So many older people get elderly but do not become Elders. A true Elder has transformed their wounds into wisdom and when invited, shares that hard won wisdom with the next generations. Elders are sadly lacking in our culture because we are so obsessed with youth, we often write older people off. Such a waste! Regardless of whether they have been initiated into Elderhood, older people have lived through so much and if listened to and respected, they will still have many gifts to offer.
For me a true Elder is one who has left behind the attachment to living through all her ego stories and related identities/roles and simply lives (lives simply?) from a place that is guided primarily by Love. As I said, it’s hard to explain in a few words as it’s such a deep and profound experience.
“I am all the ages I've ever been.” — Anne Lamott
EMMA: In other cultures, elders are respected. Touching an elder’s feet as a sign of respect is a common thing in India and Nepal. In many countries, family dinners centre the elders who are given the best seats and served first. In Māori culture, elders speak first in gatherings. There are many more examples of this I’m sure. Who are the Elders in your life? (if you don’t mind sharing).
DONNA: Yes, many other cultures recognise the importance of Elders and their significant role within family and community. In some African cultures the family/community will stand when an Elder enters the room and will not sit nor speak until they do. In the UK sadly there is just so much ageism that means that so many older people feel invisible, and that they have nothing to offer. Truly sad.
For me, my Elders have mainly been those that I don’t know but have read and listened to and been guided by. Like Maya Angelou, Father Gregory Boyle, Anne Lamott and Nick Cave. These Elders have taught me so much in my training to become one. I also have personal friends who are Elders to me and some that aren’t chronologically older than me but their Spirit is. They are more Spiritually mature and so in that way they are my Elders and so I have the humility to be guided by them.
One of my favourite films is Whalerider in which a young Māori girl is in fact a true Ancient (Elder) and has to overcome much sexism/patriarchal mindsets within her tribe to finally be allowed to take her rightful place in the community as their spiritual leader.
EMMA: You were really there for me during the depths of my burnout year in 2023. We would voicenote each other back and forth on our afternoon walks, share what our days consisted of. During that time, I needed someone older and wiser. Someone who had been there. Most of the friends my age were navigating their own 30-something dramas, and we just didn’t have the scaffolding to support each other. What do you remember from that time, if anything? I felt like you understood that magnitude of what I was going through.